Extracted from a forwarded email and sharing by AverageJoe of UntoldCityLife.com
Full Transcript
(Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar’s comments in bold.)
Sarah Montague:
Malaysia has just celebrated the 50th anniversary of its independence from Britain , and there is much to celebrate. Living standards have improved immeasurably over the past five decades, and the economy is doing well. But race is increasingly becoming a problem. A third of the population are ethnic Chinese or Indian. And they are becoming increasingly frustrated at the systematic discrimination they suffer. My guest today is the country’s Foreign Minister.
[music]
Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar, welcome to HARDtalk.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: Thank you very much.
Sarah Montague: Is it time to change Malaysia ’s laws and treat everyone the same?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
When you talking about, looking at everyone, we’re looking at nation building. The most important thing is Malaysians feel they are Malaysians. To recognise our diversity as a source of our strength, there is no need for us to change the laws so long as we’re able to exercise the unity, we’re able to act as Malaysians. And I think this is happening, the process of nation building is not a short process. We came from a very divided society that was recognised by economic functions, living at a very poor living standard. So I think we have tackled the issues in a way that will bring peace and stability, at the same time people are able to share prosperity of the country. And this is happening..
Sarah Montague:
But there were laws that were originally brought in to help Malays, who were… basically to tackle poverty. There might have been some justification for them at some time, but since poverty has been tackled, the illiteracy is eradicated, what’s the justification for treating generations-old… ethnic Chinese and Indians who’ve been in Malaysia for generations; why should they be treated differently now?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think when you’re looking at it from a detached point of view, you might be seeing it in that way. But if you look at it in reality, what is happening is that the economic growth of the non-Malays is faster after the New Economic Policy than before it. The share of the economic cake, is bigger, deeper and wider than before, so it is not as if you’re looking at a theoretical, conceptual thing, you’re looking at the realities on the ground. And the realities on the ground, if you look at the household income, between Malays, Chinese and Indians, even the Indians have got better household income than the Malays. So I think if you take it out of its ethnic dimension, then you will see that it is the function of any government to have the less fortunate, to make sure the divide that is based on ethnic division can be overcome. And I think we have done that quite successfully…
Sarah Montague:
Let’s take a look at access to universities. Is it fair that it’s easier for Malays to get to universities than it is for ethnic Indians or Chinese?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think the question, maybe at the beginning, I think it is the same thing in UK or any country that starts to build a nation. When you start to build a nation, when you see the disparity, the education opportunities, what we wanted to do was to create the opportunity. How do you avoid seeing people who are living in the rural areas with less facilities, how…
Sarah Montague:
… but you don’t have that problem any longer it’s difficult to justify..
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
We do have.. we have.. At present it is based on merit, it is based on merit, and I think if you look at the university, our democrisation of the education, you have to look in total, the number of students in Malaysia . I think people who see it from outside will try to aggravate the situation and say ‘Oh there is disparity between..
Sarah Montague:
But it doesn’t just seem.. but it doesn’t just seem to be people from outside who are saying this, people within.. it is ethnic Indians and Chinese in Malaysia …
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think you have to look at it this way.. I think without me getting excited about it, or emotional about it, looking at it in a fair balance; if you look in terms of total number of students of all universities in Malaysia, there are still more non-Malays than the Malays. And this should not be an issue that divides us. I think ultimately we have done, we have tackled all issues step by step, and it is working. I think for Malaysia it is working. Wherever we see that there is disparity.. At one time scholarships were given to Malays; government scholarships were given to Malays. Now it is open to non-Malays also. So all these things are happening, but we must dismantle..
Sarah Montague: But what about government contracts…
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
For your information, the contracts that are enjoyed by the Chinese in absolute terms, and the non-Malays, is bigger than even the Malays. If I have a piece of land that is one acre in a rural area, that one piece of acre of land, may be valued at RM10,000, or it’s about US$3,000. But if I have got a ten thousand square feet of land, in the urban area, that will cost millions. So we do not look at that.. We are building a nation, a nation that has been left divided, been recognised through economic activities, now there is building on common factors amongst us.
Sarah Montague: But do you not accept that you are in danger.. that there is rising resentment among ethnic Indians and Chinese because of this situation.. it is persisting when they don’t see that it needs to persist any longer..
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think there is a lot more discussion, open discussion, but you do not misinterpret that open discussion among the races is something negative. It shows that the nation has reached the stage of maturity. We’re questioning things that before we have taken for granted. The Chinese are looking at what more can they get, the Indians are looking how they could improve; I’m not saying that there is no problem, but for outsiders to come and tell us, ‘Ohh you’re going.. there is going to be racial tension, there is going to be problem..’ No. I think you just witnessed the 50th anniversary of independence. I think there is that sense of belonging and ownership. It is up to the Malaysians to subsequently to dismantle whatever they consider is necessary…
Sarah Montague: … how is it that ethnic Indians and Chinese feel a sense of belonging when they’re, right from the very top, they can’t get access to the top Cabinet posts?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: Who told you that?
Sarah Montague: When was the last time a senior Cabinet post was held by an ethnic Indian or Chinese?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: What do you mean by ’senior Cabinet post’?
Sarah Montague: Since 1973, the top Cabinet posts: Prime Minister, Deputy, Home Affairs, Internal Security, Defense, Foreign, Finance, Education, Trade and International Trade.. 1973 is the last time any of those posts was held by a non-Malay..
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: I can argue the same thing with so many countries, I can argue the same thing..
Sarah Montague: We’re not.. we’re not talking about other countries, we’re talking about Malaysia . Other countries can deal with their problems of their own. How would you deal.. Do you recognise that is a problem? You talk about sharing power, there is..
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
No no let me talk to you in a way that is most… that you do not get excited… that you do not get upset about something that you do not understand. Let me tell you this: Whenever we want to do something, it is important for us to look at other countries. That’s where we learn, that’s how we leapfrog. Democracy does not come by itself, it comes because we look at the examples of other places. So let me say that, in the case that, the most important thing is, there will come a time when the Chinese, the Indians and the other races in Malaysia have accepted that arrangement; how can somebody from outside come to tell us, ‘Ohh..’
Sarah Montague: You mean…
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: They have accepted..
Sarah Montague: .. you mean this situation is fine because nobody is saying anything in Malaysia about it..
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
No no.. not nobody is saying. If they are able to.. if the Opposition, if they’re able.. or the Chinese parties decide to get together and to change that thing, there is nothing under the law to stop it. That is what I’m saying..
Sarah Montague: Do you not think it’s a little odd that all the senior posts… in the Cabinet in the last 30 years have been held by a non-Malay?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I don’t think… I don’t think so. This is a democratic system. Each one of them have agreed in the coalition to work together. It is well and good for somebody to say that ‘All this.. it should not be’, I don’t think we’re going to be told how it should be..
Sarah Montague: There is outside… there is inside Malaysia who say this.. this social contract is actually State racism. What do you say to that?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
Oh. I can say the worse about Israeli State racism; in our case we don’t have that provision. You have to look at it in, I think, objectively. I don’t think it is right to look at Malaysia as a racist country. I don’t think it is right. You should see how the infusion of cultures, the getting together, the people get along together.. Yes you can find there are.. people who disagree with it.. there are certain things that people say ‘Ah it’s not perfect,’.. I would be the last person that say this is a perfect situation, but I think we have succeeded in building a multiracial society out of our diversity. We have succeeded in bringing the whole of the Malaysian community, even against the diverse backgrounds, together, to work together. There will come a time… that… if it is the choice of the people, because one person is one vote..
Sarah Montague: When do you think that time will come..
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: … That is up to the voters…
Sarah Montague:
Because there are plenty of people outside Malaysia , who look at it, and let’s take a look at investors, because [while you] think, ‘Look it’s absolutely fine,’ there are those who would invest in Malaysia , but choose not to do so. And here’s an emerging markets fund manager. He’s cashed out most of his fund investments in Malaysia , because he said, ‘The problem is that the Malays would do a lot better as well if there weren’t the restrictions. They’ve got the resources, they’ve got the people; they’re just not harnessing them in the right way.’ And he suggests that you roll back those measures, to encourage entrepreneurial energy. And that was Mark Mobius, who’s the fund manager with Franklin Templeton.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think what he’s saying, if you do not… If there are ten fund managers, there is one fund manager that say in that way, then I think he is entitled to his own view. But the majority of fund managers find that Malaysia is a good place for investment, it is a good place that gives good returns on investment; the Malaysian economy has grown because of foreign investment..
Sarah Montague: But why has it not grown as much as other countries in the area..
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think they’re quite happy that it has grown for the last.. If you look at it from double digit, now we have grown about 6 percent, so it’s not a bad growth..
Sarah Montague: … But it’s slowing and your neighbouring countries are growing faster.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
No there are times that our neighbouring countries grow slower, and we grow faster. I mean, you can’t take… one particular moment and say ‘Oh this is growing faster, therefore it is because of..’, I tell you..I can actually give all sorts of clarifications if I want to, on so many things. But I think you have to look at it; have we succeeded in creating peace and stability, in generating prosperity among the races, have we succeeded in trying to infuse culture out of our diversity; we are better off than many other countries..
Sarah Montague: But my question is, will it continue to do so?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think it will. I am not in the same position like you are… look at it negatively. I am a Malaysian. My love for my country, my commitment to my country, I would say yes. I am not going to allow any foreigners to tell me, ‘Oh this is going to break’. No I will not allow that.
Sarah Montague: A recent survey on race relations in Malaysia found that 34 percent of those who were asked had never had a meal with citizens of other races. The lives of different races within Malaysia are now so divided that, that you have different races - they learn in separate schools, they eat separately, they work separately, they socialise separately - does that worry you?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
If that happens like the way you say, of course it worries us. That’s why we have been addressing the racial issues. We talk about among ourselves, I do not know whether you [?] realise or not, we talk about the danger of polarisation, the danger of us looking at ourselves separately, of course we tackle these problems. But we recognise, it can exist. But we have got a desire of tackling those issues. It’s not we are saying, you know try to brush everything under the carpet and think, ‘Oh it doesn’t exist’. What exists, we recognise. But it is not.. it is not as if we are not doing something..
Sarah Montague: But why is society is becoming increasingly divided? The Crown Prince of Perak makes the point that in his boyhood, the different races mixed more freely. He says some Malay-majority schools have made the girls wear headscarves… … people to avoid non-Malay homes. He points to the fact that lives are being lived more separately, increasingly so.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think that’s a very good comment that he has made. He is as much responsible as all of us are. All of us have to find a way… that means we have identified the problems that we have… the fact that a person wears a headscarf does not make a person an extreme. What we want to avoid, is extreme behaviour, whether of faith or culture, or of customs. We need to work together. I think the most important thing, you know Sarah, if I can tell you, is to understand the issues and then try to address them. Not to look at the issues, and say that, ‘Oh it’s getting worse.’ There is this problem, we need to tackle those problem. I’m not saying that there is no problem. That is the very thing that you are saying..
Sarah Montague: .. the fact that it is getting worse, and when I quote the Crown Prince … uhh… the prominent historian Khoo Kay Kim says, ‘It is becoming increasingly difficult for the peoples of various ethnic groups to participate in common activity.’
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
No, I think this is what the Malaysians have addressed. All of us are talking about it. It’s not something that is alien, that you are telling me that this exists; we know that.
Sarah Montague: But it is getting worse. Do you not accept it is getting worse?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
No, I think there is relations all over the world, is getting worse. Polarisation all over the world is getting worse. But it does not mean you should give up. We know it exists, but we want to take steps to overcome them. That’s why, our current government, is giving the opportunity, for everyone to talk about it. And then try to provide solutions. One of the things that we have done in the Merdeka celebrations is to make that sense of participation, that every race… Because we know there is that problem of polarisation, division… People leaving go to Chinese schools, go to Tamil schools, they don’t mix with each other; so all these, we are handling and tackling them. I am not going to take…
Sarah Montague: What are you plan to do about the schools then, the fact that…
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
The schools, we need to overcome the problem of sensitivities. We wanted to establish the integrated schools, where everyone, studying their language, their … medium of instruction, under one school. But here in this particular case, the Chinese does not want. They want a separate school of their own. So now what we have done, in the national schools, we have brought in the… you can study Chinese, you can study Tamil, you can study other ethnic… You know you can’t get that in other places. You know some… I think, we recognise their problems, but it is not a problem we cannot overcome.
Sarah Montague: Article 11 of the Malaysian Constitution says ‘every person has the right to profess and practise his religion’. Increasingly, that seems to be becoming meaningless. Is it?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I don’t think so. I don’t agree with you. You’re talking about practising their own religion.. you know, Malaysia is one of the places that you can see the practice of multi-religions, and all religions exist in Malaysia . But if you’re talking about, you know, converting one person to… That is a different issue entirely…
Sarah Montague: Why is a Muslim, and there have been some high-profile cases, perhaps one of the most high-profile - Lina Joy, a Malay woman. She tried to convert to Christianity and she wasn’t allowed to.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think you have made the whole thing… turn into something that is negative. Lina Joy wanted to change her name; she was never not allowed to convert to Christianity or whatever religion that she has chosen. But a person is born, with an identity card; there is a system that we have in Malaysia , the ID. And that ID you want to change, that creates problems. It is nothing to do with the fact that nobody has arrested her and forced her to become a Muslim, to convert to become a Muslim. But the court decided, on the basis that, you cannot change your name in the ID. But she has got her own choice, she has made her own choice, in wanting to be what she has chosen. I don’t think we stop that.
Sarah Montague: So anybody can convert. Let’s take the case of Revathi Masoosai. Now she was a Muslim-born Malaysian woman, who was sent to an Islamic rehabilitation centre for six months, because she tried to live as a Hindu.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
[pause] I think that happens all the time, for a Muslim, you have to look at the diversity.. If you are a Muslim, you are converted or you choose to convert - we see whether that conversion is being done, she has entered into another religion voluntarily or not, then she will have that right, the choice, the option to decide on her own. I think … out of 5 million Malaysians, or there are about 12 million Malaysians who have profess certain religions, and there are two or three cases; I don’t think it represents the whole country. And there are quite a number of issues that are more important, bigger than what you are describing, but if you describe out of one, then it becomes the whole picture. I don’t think that is right.
Sarah Montague: It’s.. it’s important because it shows what the State is doing, it shows how it could affect other individuals. I mean, if you take her case, why could she not practise as a Hindu?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
She has decided.. If ultimately she has decided to become a Hindu, that’s up to her.
Sarah Montague: .. But she had to go through what she has gone…
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: She is a Muslim.
Sarah Montague: Six months rehabilitation, she says it was like a prison. They say it’s a school, but it’s actually like a prison.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: Yah, out of the how many Muslim women that got converted to Hindus?
Sarah Montague: She…
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
You are.. you know she came out, and she said that is what had happened. Have they proceeded against her? They have not proceeded against her. She has.. they want to make sure that…
Sarah Montague: She now has to live with her mother in order to see her child.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: To see her child… whether…
Sarah Montague: She has a child with the Hindu man.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
You know, if you follow a certain religion, like you are a member of a certain club, you are subject to certain rules. When you want to get out of that club, then you must make sure you follow that rule in getting out of it. But nobody is going to stop anyone, who so strongly profess a certain religion, they want to change to another religion, that’s up to them. But it does create… misunderstanding, between people, between religions. Malaysia we have survived, because we have kept …that, that compartment [?], rather than… you know.. the various religions living, practising… without interference. If you see in Malaysia , there are more… Malaysia practises more freedom than even in this country.
Sarah Montague: But these cases are used… are used as examples of where people fear a creeping Islamisation of Malaysia.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think there is.. there is that prejudice rather than creeping Islamisation. You must remember that in the Constitution, Islam is the official religion of Malaysia . You know.. that at the same time, we have got per capita population, we have got so many…
Sarah Montague: But is it an Islamic State?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: It is an Islamic State.
Sarah Montague: It is, or is not?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
… but it is not a theocratic Islamic State. We have said that. You know because we, as far as we are concerned, we do not see the separation you know, the old rule - the separation of church and State, as something that is applicable to us. We do not stop people building churches, there are so many churches in Malaysia , more than wherever you can find…
Sarah Montague: But you have Syariah Courts operating…
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar: Syariah Court is up to the Muslims.
Sarah Montague: Only for the Muslims?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
It’s for the Muslims. It’s not.. it’s… you know please don’t.. don’t get…
Sarah Montague: But you have this system because of the amendment in 1988, where there seems to be confusion over when Syariah Law applies, and when…
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think that.. that.. I know that you have looked at certain parts of it, and then you try to dissect it. Okay. When there is… on matters pertaining to Syariah, the jurisdiction is given to the Syariah Court . On matters pertaining to Syariah, if there is any conflict between the two laws - between the Syariah and our civil laws - it is for the courts to decide. But this is done in the courts. It is.. we use the rule of law in order to determine right and to determine which law is applicable. And I think that is the correct way of approaching the subject. Malaysia is not an easy country to govern. It is easier for commentators to say ‘This is wrong. This is wrong.. this is wrong,’ but I think that you have to live in it, to see how to govern the country. And I think overall, we are very happy in what is happening in our country, and whatever weaknesses, we will overcome them.
Sarah Montague:
When your Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi became prime minister, he promised to do a number of things, not least tackle corruption. And yet, a survey by PERC (Editor’s Note: Political and Economic Risk Consultancy), which is a Hong Kong-based consultancy, showed that corruption is perceived to have worsened in Malaysia this year. Does he accept that you have a lot more to do?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
Yes, I think we agree with that. We have to do a lot more in terms of ensuring good governance, ensuring that our fight against corruption can be overcome. I think this is a perennial problem that needs to be tackled, and that has to be tackled with the law, as well as with education, that is why we have established the Integrity.. the Institute of Integrity , in order to inculcate that sense of good governance, values - which is necessary, sense of morality.. When we have problems, we identify them, and we try to tackle them.
Sarah Montague: It is not going as fast as you would hope. Do you accept that?
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
I think in some areas it is slow, in some areas it is… moving in the right direction. But there are.. there are problems.
Sarah Montague:
Datuk Seri Syed Hamid Albar, many thanks.
Dato Seri Syed Hamid Albar:
Thank you very much, thank you.
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